Personal thoughts on the two weapon systems

Since there has been a lot of debate with the new weapon system I decided to write up my personal list of pros of cons with both the new and old system and respond to various arguments against the new system.

Note: certain statistics are based on if you had every weapon unlocked, actual statistics vary from player to player. Also all arguments are based on my personal opinion on the matter.


Randomized weapon system pros
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· Matches are decided based on skill in most situations instead of who has the most op weapons at the start.

· Matches now have variety and people are coming up with methods to maximize the damage of weapons they would of never used in the past

· It may be possible to talk Kyle into adding a point’s mode with this system since it wouldn’t be easy to get 300+ xp a round.

· Lower levels can defeat higher levels if they play better than the higher level.

· Lower levels are able to obtain more xp against higher level.

· You can increase your chances of getting decent weapons with points invested into luck, which causes players to rethink their build so there may be varying builds now.

· Luck has a use and people have a reason to actually go for boxes now.

· Gameplay is not as stale as you are more likely to use every weapon available instead of just the top tiered versions 99% of the time



Randomized weapon system cons
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· Takes a bit more time to level up weapons which has been solved for the most part with the recent change on weapon xp requirements but it still takes a bit longer.

· When playing people that are around the same level/skill level matches can still sometimes be decided on who had the better start.

· Getting what you want is much less common since you have a 15/233 chance on getting the weapon you want

· You can obtain maxed weapons you have never unlocked from boxes with the chances being increased if you invest points into luck which may or may not make you think what is the point of leveling weapons.

· Matches take longer to finish with it being the most noticeable in FFA/team matches



Selectable tiered weapon system pros
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· You are able to select what tier of a weapon you desire to use

· Less random with a 15/86 chance of getting the weapon you desire

· Weapon training is easier due to the higher chance of getting an unmaxed weapon and ability to always use your highest tiered version of it.

· Matches take a shorter amount of time to finish and FFA and team matches are less time consuming

Selectable Tiered weapon system cons
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· You will only use the highest tiered weapon and 3/4ths of the games weapons will be completely abandoned except for a very small selection of weapons.

· Match results are highly dependent on who got the largest amount of weapons that can do 150+ damage easily.

· Lower levels are completely outgunned and have no chance at beating you.

· Points mode will never be a thing no matter how much we beg due to the fact it would make leveling a joke since you would have a 30/86 chance on getting the op weapon you want.

· Most matches will play out the same which can make gameplay stale.


Arguments against the randomized system I would like to respond to
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A: Low levels that are more skilled should not be able to easily beat very high leveled players

R: Higher levers aren’t as powerless as you are made to believe. You have much more tank upgrades, much better weapon potential than the lower level which gives you a very large advantage and if you are losing easily it is most likely because either you are not used to using weapons you haven’t thought about ever using since upgrading them, or simply the lower level is just a more skilled player. Being a high level does not automatically make you super skilled at the game, all it means is you invested more time than others to get further in the game and nothing more.

A: I never asked for this update Kyle doesn’t care about his community

R: Kyle actually held a formal vote on the topic of this update and a majority voted for it If you did note want this update you should of voted against it and if you did not vote at all its no one’s fault but your own. Kyle's focus is to increase sales that's how business works he did not build this game for a single group of individuals alone. At the end of the day changes are bound to happen if the majority of his audience request it. No matter what Kyle does he will always be unable to please everyone but he will always choose to please the majority instead of the minority we may not always agree with it but again that's just business and all we can do when changes happen we don't agree with is just make the best of it.

A: Why did we have to change the system why not make it a selectable option?

R: The problem with having both types of weapon systems is people are only going to use the one that gives the most exp. The only possible way to have both systems in game without one being completely abandoned is massive changes to weapons and such to make both modes comparable xp wise, but if changes were to happen it would do nothing but just cause a player backlash since people will feel their preferred mode got needlessly nerfed.

A: The system is pointless since if I max luck I can just get top tier stuff very often and repeat the problems from the previous problems with the old system

R: That is true but only if you are level 100, in almost any other situation you are going to have to sacrifice either some of your traction, armor, or gun which hurts your damage dealing potential, mobility, and damage tanking ability’s so in most cases you must decide for yourself if it’s worth sacrificing that stuff for a better chance at getting good weapon which balances out the system for the most part except when your level 100 with a completely maxed tank.

A: leveling weapons take forever now and now I’m forced to use lower tiered unmaxed stuff.

R: This is one argument I saw a lot of merit to in the beginning since the change did make weapons notably harder to level, but the thing is Kyle has already addressed these concerned and lowered the overall xp required for every weapon to level up to make up for that slowdown in progress.

A: there was nothing wrong with the new system as there is naturally supposed to be a gap between low and high level players.

R: The problem is before the new system was introduced I found matches were decided on who had the most heavy napalms, duel needlers, snipe, or some other powerful weapon and not actual skill with comebacks often being impossible if you had a not as powerful selection as weapon as your opponent even if you and your opponent are similar levels. This problem gets much worse against lower level players as they got absolutely no chance at winning do to having minimal perks, minimal weapons and no chance at taking out so much as your armor before your already destroyed them. The common argument used against this is why are these lower levels playing against these high levels? Well because the community is small right now low levels that play the game are faced with two choices most the time, Bite the bullet and try to scrape what little xp you can get from a high level that’s willing to stay for long periods of time, or wait long periods of time for someone that is a similar level to join and pray they stay for more than one game, because of this ultimatum it caused low levels to drop the game because they got tired of losing without putting up any sort of fight because no matter how skilled they are they can’t compete and waiting long periods of time to play someone their level for a hopefully fair match which in turn caused the higher level players to drop the game for a time because no one was around but other high levels.

 

You pretty much hit the nail right on the head with this post. Really sums up what the new system is all about. Yet people are still posting the same arguments that you responded to here. I would love to see some rebuttals to your responses.

 

Thank you very much for creating this and taking your time to write all of these.

I'm actually excited to see what kinds of arguments people are coming up with.

 

One thing I noticed in your arguments was luck. Luck could not (and probably SHOULD not) be used in such a system. Many players I play edited their tree to have a lot of luck, and because I have armor and gun, they always beat me because I can't get much better than tier 2 weapons. I have only gotten a couple of tier 3 and 4 weapons since the update came out. Games should not be luck based at all. Instead, I have a different proposition for the use of luck, which crosses some promises off of kChamp's list.

What if he made minigames which allowed us to win gears? The more luck you have, the more gears you can earn per usage. Maybe going from 1 gpa with no luck to 5-10 gpa or something like that. It would allow him to make minigames which he promised us while making luck useful. It could work, if he is willing to add them.

 

I love how the cons are still a bit glaring pointing out a future fix is needed. What the fix includes is beyond me but maybe one person will wake up one day and find out that answer.
Besides that the cons are pretty hard to look past right now for many. I mean I hadn't noticed they were indeed that bad but reading them doesn't make it any easier to take, even if their are pro's.(Many of which don't sway me in anyway.)

All I know is there doesn't seem to be a way to address everything so that everyone is happy. I think it is pretty much impossible unless we find that miracle fix I suggested earlier. I just don't feel a reason right now to progress that much if I have weapons like nuke but will hardly get to use or level them without twice the amount of time put into leveling. I played for fun and having to do that instead doesn't help my case for it.

 

Might as well remove the entire luck upgrade then, huh?

The game isn't fully based on luck. I have none and still get good weapons. What this did to the game is that now people actually plan in what they upgrade instead of the classic armor, gun and track upgrade.

Well maybe the chances of getting good weapons can only increase slightly per slot.

 

The luck portion of the game gives the game actual strategy in planning your tank. Now it's not just "Let's upgrade these 3 because my tank will be awesome" Now you have to think about what is the best leveled tank with the addition of luck and limited tank upgrades.

 

What's wrong with making the 4th skill tree viable? Is it because you now can't max out the other 3 skills without worrying about luck?

Luck deserved to get more of a purpose because before it was practically useless. Now it has a purpose and is another skill to consider when decking out your tank. Now instead of all the max leveled players running around with just maxed gun, track, and armor, we're now going to see some variation in what players choose to do with their tokens.

People need to accept that there is no perfect system. The cons of the selectable system are glaring as well, and this is a compromise. I'll actually go over what I imagine to be probable fixes for each con:

-Takes a bit more time to level up weapons which has been solved for the most part with the recent change on weapon xp requirements but it still takes a bit longer
This has already been addressed, but really each individual damage requirement for each weapon needs a closer look for what each weapon really requires. It feels like a lot of the requirements were determined by a formula rather than consideration of the potential of each individual weapon.

-When playing people that are around the same level/skill level matches can still sometimes be decided on who had the better start.
A pick and ban system can remove most of the luck involved in starting arsenals.

-Getting what you want is much less common since you have a 15/233 chance on getting the weapon you want
A pick and ban system can also give you more chances to get what weapons you want without making every arsenal insanely overpowered.

-You can obtain maxed weapons you have never unlocked from boxes with the chances being increased if you invest points into luck which may or may not make you think what is the point of leveling weapons.
Simple changes to the formula that selects what crates give to make it very rare to find tiers you haven't unlocked can fix this.

-Matches take longer to finish with it being the most noticeable in FFA/team matches
Not really a problem, but you could just lower the health in games for a hotfix. That kind of sucks though since high health is fun, so general weapons buffs and balancing would fix the rest.

 

Could this still not happen for the minigame suggestion I made? It makes people use luck because they want more gears per minigame gameplay. There is more you can use luck for than weapons and boxes, and we should let ourselves know that. Besides weapons, minigames, and boxes, what can luck do? That is something we should think about.

 

Luck seems potent enough just on the basis that it makes your loadouts objectively better. If minigames were introduced for gears, the entire notion of playing the actual game would be nullified by the fact that you could just farm up gears in a game of PongShock. Why does the game need minigames for any other purpose than to occupy the dead?

 

This new system actually make them as powerless as it can get... like i said b4 and you seemed to choose to ignore cause of no argument... i've personally seen a lucky 28 lvl outgun a 80 lvl with obviously a better skill tree just because he was luckier. Other ppl saw it and you'll see it and everyone will experience it eventually.

You might say "oh but its an exception". Well it might happen less than 50% but its possible... how ppl would like this to happen right on a clan tournament match? I know i would hate it... so thats a HUGE flaw in the system that complete ruins it for me.

If you want to say "so we must go back to when needlers and napalms decided matches?". I also think thats not good but it has other solutions to solve this rather than ruinning the game with a flaw system. "What are those?"

• If the system is radomized as it is now: You program an algorithym where the summed dmg of the weps obtained by the oponents are similar (for example a player got Napalm, Satellite and Multi-nade. The oponent gets Sprinkler, Grenade and SplitterChain.) This is balance.
• If you have the tab system as before: Even more simple to develop the programming to make possible dmg be similar between oponents... with the advantage that the personal skill and judgment of the player will get the best out of the weps given to him since he can change between tiers.

That is not true Actually making the luck influence the tier of the weps to blindly give you the latest tier is another big flaw in this system. Lets supose you have to do a high angle shot and due to a maxed luck you got Fiesta. So if you had less luck here it would be better because Pinata would actually fit the situation better

Thats why i think there was other smart ways sugested here in the forum to make luck usefull... which is pretty much the better con this new system have.

I already answered about the weps deciding everything... but to make it clear about the gap between lvls... on every game a lvl 80 is suposed to erase a lvl 20 from the face of the earth. There is no excuse for this.



I hope these answers help you guys get a big picture of the situation and be helpfull.

 

@JohannZim

I'm going to plug my pick/ban idea again since it removes a good amount of the luck from the initial 15 weapons you get. Besides, you've already gloated you haven't lost a game since the update, so why do you even care? Shouldn't the game be more skill based than grind based?

And for your Pinata/Fiesta example, that situation is so insanely niche that it holds no, if any, clout towards your argument that luck doesn't make arsenals objectively better.

 

I could give a bunch of other examples... theres several weps that you might choose the previous tier to fit situation.

And as it is right now its NOT skill based... its luck based. Not cool.

To answer you why i care i wont even quote the post since you seemed to read it yourself "gloated i haven't lost" and the answer is in the same post... you literally just have to read 2 more sentences to see.

 

I can imagine different air strike tiers being used in different situations as well as sinkhole vs area strike, but for the most part tiers are literally direct upgrades. The direct upgrades by far outweigh the side-grades when it comes to tiers, making a max tiered loadout objectively better than a tier 1 loadout.

I brought up how you mentioned you never lost because from what I gather, you haven't lost a single game yet say one level 28 defeat a level 80 in all your time playing. That's one defeat. One outlier. And you're basing most of your arguments off of that single defeat. That's bias if I've ever seen it.

 

Also i'd like to add that its not just 1 match... other ppl i talked to also saw it and you dont need to be a genious to know its a perfectly possible thing to happen now. Theres ppl that are so lucky it blows your mind. That being said i still think its an exception which doesnt change the gravity of the flaw.

The fact is... it doesnt matter if its less than 50% of the time... hapenning 10% 5% of the time needing other tiers would arleady be a massive flaw in the system. Or you are not thinking how many times this will occur after so many matches? I even sugested how to make it really balanced... so i'll go ahead and say you just didnt read what i said or you just want to be sttuborn towards me somehow.

The more experienced and skilled you get... more uses for different tiers you'll see depending of situation:
Different air strikes, sinkholeVSarea, pinataVSfiesta, megatunnelerVStunneler strikeVStorpedos, heavynapalmVSfirestorm, GrenadeStormVSmultinade, all tiers of Bouncer, all tiers of Bounder

Those are just the ones that pop in my head right now... im sure there's more but thats enough for you to make a difference or you'll make me name them all?

 

Just want to add, this is only if you have all 233 weapons

 

Alright, this is certainly luck based. I played ahole earlier. In the first game, he had 4 nukes and 3 dualneedlers (which almost killed me, leaving me with 20 hp). Then, he got 4 dualneedlers and 3 AC 130s (which left me at about 60 hp). Lastly, he got 2 nukes, 2 dualneedlers, and 2 heavy napalms. That is freaking luck-based if I've ever seen it.

 

since there is now a very fast lvl up system you can t count tank upgreads like a thing that allow high lvls to win.i mean a lvl 20 can t beat a lvl 80 but a lvl 60 can easly beat a lvl 80 now,and a lvl 80 played much much more than a 60 also a lvl 50 would have maxed 2 paths so the tank upgreads are not very importnat now maybe before the fast lvl up updeat

 

You're missing the entire point of the system then. This game isn't being catered to people with power because of the situation that is not many people playing this game. Kyle is a business man, not just a developer, and if he's going to make the game successful he needs to make it so low levels aren't completely shut down. Even still, you're talking about this David and Goliath situation as if it's a rare happening, so it obviously doesn't even apply all that well. That chance is supposed to be there by design.

And this isn't an MMO. You can think of it as a brand new player in Call of Duty killing a level 50 player. The imbalance is supposed to be there, as to make the game more enjoyable an experience for everyone. Now you can't predict the outcome of a game before it even starts.

Fair enough, but...

Oh woe is me, I only have this stupid hover ball when I really wanted a multi-nade. The differences might as well be hover ball vs multinade between tiers because they are giving you that amount of options within a single weapon. News flash, not everything in the game has to be made to your advantage. Sometimes you're going to have to make-do with your arsenal, not every single game has to be malleable to give you the upper hand.

It's not all about you.

Do you mean the innate luck that we all have or the luck mechanic built into the game?

If the former, I'm going to continue to plug my pick/ban idea because it removes most of the innate luck from your initial arsenal.

If the latter, isn't that what the luck upgrade is for? It's supposed to be a viable upgrade path, and that's what it is. It's viable now.

what

 

i was editing it xD ,however now thats edidted

 

Oh I get what you're saying now. Thanks

But... Isn't that what the update is for? Obviously they do still give an advantage, but wasn't the update's goal to make it so that you couldn't assume the match outcome 99% of the time before the game even began?

 

This type of algorithm would only truly work if players have unlocked somewhat similar weapons that would balancing out overall power between two players possible amd even then it would difficult algorithm to write due to the fact there are many shots that hit a target more than once, or a shots overall power is determined by range, and shots that shoot multiple projectiles, and some shots are based on pure RNG which may create problems with that said algorithm in certain situations. For example say if the algorithm was based on everys shots maximum possible damage potential, it would still be potentially unbalanced since player A. could get a multinade and player B. could get a fiesta still because of the fact if fiesta did its max possible damage it would be comparable to multinade. Even if there were a way to balance this said algorithm so both players have the same amount of damage potential at the start of a match how does this work against lower levels? Say if the higher leveled player started with weapons can reliably do 80-100 damage does that mean the lower level will get stacks of needlers to make up for the damage due to the fact low levels don't get many powerful weapons from the the start? What happens when your facing off someone with not many weapon unlocks yet how would it balance itself then except for the needler example i said before. It sounds good on paper but it has plenty of holes that would require lots of weapon re-balances that would ultimately piss a lot of people off.

Yes there are situations where getting a max tiered weapon is annoying but those are very few and far between as there is a very very small amount of lower tiered weapons you would actually want to use over the higher tier such as sinkhole,heavy napalm,torpedo/tunnel strike, ect. Right now as it stands 80-90% of the current weapons upgrades are nothing but straight upgrades so its rare when something like that happens but i do see where your coming from.

You don't seem to understand the effect this caused in the past, this is not a high population game like ssl2 with somewhat a large amount of players of all levels. This is a game that where if we are lucky there is enough people online to fill 3/4's of the first page of games, with high leveled games being the most commonly made due to the fact the higher leveled player is more active. Lower levels have no choice in the matter most the time who they have to fight they gotta either take it or leave it because if they ever wanted to get through the grind to catch up they had no choice to put up with it which caused a lot of people to drop the game before the xp rate changes due to the fact no one wanted to invest hundreds of hours just to be able to finally win a single game. For right now at least i believe lower levels should have a chance of winning so we get them to stick around and actually get a growing community and if at some point in the future there is enough active players to warrant bringing back that gap in power fine so be it, but right now it is nothing but a detriment to the game and will stunt its growth.

 

I didnt say it was going to be an easy work... but when its done it will solve the problem without flaws... do you prefer the less bad system or a system that really works? We're paying money for the game... Kyle could hire a team to help him do it if its too hard for him alone.

10% 20% is not even close to "nothing". I know you are a new player and not very experienced... but for old farts like me we like to give our best potential in our matches... actually we need to... specially when clan tournaments begins we'll need EVERY SINGLE SHOT to count as the best as it can... you have no idea how close matches can be between two very skilled/experienced players... so this flaw will bother way more than you think just playing the game for regular matches.

No buddy... you are missing out the point. This game is at Beta... its suposed to have few players... on Beta you dont develop the game for Beta. When the game is done if Kyle does his job right... its expected to have 100x more players than he ever got on ssl1 and ssl2 together... Steam is a way more famous plataform than any flash game individually.

How do you develop something for a few players when you'll have such a masssive ammount of players? Do you want to change the game all the time or be smart and develop for its final stage? Thats exactly what i said already... ppl doesnt seem to be getting the drill... they are so immediatists and selfish that they cant think a little over their own noses. Or they are just unexperienced and never took part at any development before.
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Yes. Thats why he made the rooms with lvl difference requirement system. So that low lvls arent complete shut down.

This game is closer to a MMO than a FPS... but your example is actually funny... a new player in a call of duty 1vs1 agaisnt a lvl 50 will be humilliated as well. Prob 2/20 if the new guy is average.

Who said its about me? Its about everyone... how to make the best of the game to everyone. The game has to be malleable to favor the best skilled player in the most possible balanced way. Its not like that now... so it needs to change.

I thought that i had already made it clear it wasn't about me... i think you are just throwing words now.
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Also this is important for people that insist in denying personal luck is not influenciating the results as the luck in the skill tree is so much more efficient. Im sure you all will experience several matches like this... you'll choose to see it or not.


PS: I know i posted 3 times in a row... but considering they are big posts and quoted for specific ppl i hope you guys doesnt mind. If i merge all 3 posts it will look like a mess.

 

Yet with such a small amount of players, that system is rendered obsolete as you're going to be forced to wait an even longer amount of time to find a game. Limiting yourself in this community is shooting yourself in the foot.
But since that option is there, why don't you, and anybody else who doesn't want to be killed by a low level, just use that option?

So you admit low levels in CoD as well will be humiliated even with a 2/20 chance, without a problem in that low chance? You are talking about low levels overcoming high levels in SSL as if it's even rarer, so why is it even a problem in your eyes?

And for the game to be best for everyone and to grow would be to make it so everybody can have an enjoyable time playing without being completely shut down. How is that so hard to understand?
Not to mention it's hard for me to enjoy just playing this game against my friends, as they are either way too low a level to pose a thread to me, or they are way too high a level for me to pose a threat to them. I don't want to be excluded from playing with those I'm close to just because of a level difference.

And I feel the same towards you. We are really just a couple of brick walls talking to each other anyways so of course we will feel that way. I will admit I'm not being entirely consistent, but this conversation is helping me realize some things about the game system and I will thank you for that .

You don't understand how big Steam is and what that means for SSL. SSL is tiny compared to the rest of Steam and it's not likely in any sense that "its expected to have 100x more players than he ever got on ssl1 and ssl2 together". That's a pipe dream. Kyle is trying his best to get players playing now, which is apparent with the low pricing, the asking for positive reviews, and the consideration of a demo. It's likely SSLS will never breach 200 players at once.