The Delta of Randomness: The Failure of Shellshock Live

Before I begin, this concept applies to every Shellshock Live game. This is not just an issue Steam has. Randomness here applies to the effect of the weapon, rather than the "draw" rate of a weapon, though it needs more than 1/total weapons, too. Crits are not counted into any calculations, or it would make it even more complicated. This is a "basic overview".
Also, this video is done by the amazingly talented Extra Credits team. There is more I have learned from them about what SSL as a brand has done wrong, but I decided to focus in on this.

In case you decided not to watch the video, here are three big reasons to insert randomness into your game:
1) To create exciting moments.
2) To give the lesser opponent a chance at beating the higher ones.
3) To force players to adapt to certain circumstances and make plans around them.

The developer has to choose what he wants to have in his game. Sadly, if he focused on anything, he focused on #3, the worst of the options because it happens automatically. More on that later.

Now, what exactly is the Delta of Randomness? This is a chart depicting a weapon's best and worst effect and comparing it to the best and worst effects of every other weapon. When you average it out, you get a line of mean. You can compare individual weapons to this line of mean and figure out whether they are "balanced" according to the scales of randomness. Let's get into some examples:

Spaz: This weapon shoots out randomly and creates a random explosion radius and damage amount of impact. The lowest Spaz can do in a feasable sense is 0 (it runs away or it hits the opponent, dealing 0). The highest I've ever seen for Spaz is 90 with a decent sized radius, so we'll put it at that number. Though you might not like this weapon, this is an example of a balanced weapon. If the mean line is 50 (which it is somewhere around there), it has the capability to go above and below the line. This is a great weapon.

MegaNuke: This weapon shoots out and makes a huge blast radius with massive damage to accompany it. The lowest damage in a feasable sense is 0, but this is technically not true. The player's skill and the massive radius makes it impossible to miss. Since you will only miss 1/100 MegaNukes or less, we will put that number at 99. The highest it can do is 100. If the power curve is 50, this weapon is greatly over it. According to the Delta of Randomness, the weapon should have a drastic downfall to accompany its massive radius. But it really doesn't. There is nothing to counter the power of this weapon. This weapon is unbalanced.

All low tier weapons: They are mostly one shot projectiles that hit an enemy directly, and maybe do a damage animation on the side (Twinkler, etc.). Their lowest feasable damage is 0, while their max is somewhere around 40. These are all under the power curve, and there are few benefits in addition to any of them. Bulger makes a hill, and that's pretty much it. These weapons are unbalanced.

Travellers: This weapon is a weapon that spews out projectiles after landing. There is no explosion radius after landing. They then wander about the screen until they fade away. The lowest feasible damage is 0, but the max can be all the way up to 100 if you're lucky. These projectiles move in different directions and speeds. If one of the projectiles "lulls" over the tank, you'll get a massive damage boost. If they don't, you won't get as much damage. If the power curve is 50, this is a balanced weapon. Though it might not be liked until Scavengers comes out (which is well over the line), this weapon is balanced.

If you apply this to every weapon in the game, you begin to understand just how little regard this game has for this concept. Many weapons greatly exceed this line and have little drawback. There are some good weapons, like Attractoids, which gets stilted if terrain gets in the way (though it does too much damage to be perfectly balanced), but most of the are like MegaNuke or Shot. But how does that affect anything? Well, let's apply this to the three concepts for randomness in games to explain what happens.

1. To create exciting moments: The game does this, but in a subpar fashion. If you shoot a Portal Gun onto someone, it will do 50 damage, every time. Though it is balanced, it provides no suspense (remember, we aren't talking crits or x2s or lazers or anything here. Just a normal turn). While it could happen in a tight game with two locked in opponents, making it suspenseful, most times the player just accepts it is going to happen and plans for the next turn. There is no suspense in that. Again, I'm not saying there is none of this, but there isn't enough to liven the gameplay. Also, lasers and x2s sort of do this, but they rest far above their own special curve. They hurt the game more than the weapon difference does.
2. To give the lesser opponent a chance to beat the higher ones: This game gives no hope for that. kChamp completely disregarded this aspect while making the game. No starting weapon could help someone of a lower level beat even a mediocre player at lvl 50. That's where the rulers come in (believe me, there WILL be a thread about how they hurt the game coming soon). Even that isn't enough for the low levels. They are so under the curve compared to the other people so much higher than the curve that they simply don't even stand a chance. This is horrible planning on kChamp's part.
3. To force players to adapt to certain situations and make plans around them: Well, this game is again a mixture. Most times, the weapons make no radius at all or have a circular radius. Sure, Desert and Quicksand are a huge exception to that, but in general, weapons don't really affect games much for situations. What DOES affect this, though, are the maps. Some maps are great for weapons like Air Strike and some are not. That brings some variety into the games, but it may also determine games. If you get stuck on Lowlands with your opponent on the side slope and a bunch of air strike-esque weapons, you're screwed. Though there are faults with this, I will say that this is the best executed point of randomness in the game.

Now, I've listed all of this stuff, but I haven't given a single way on how to fix any of it. Well, if you're looking for results, boy do I have some stuff for you.

The following applies when an enemies' HP is 200+ below a level of higher stature:
Damage animation applies to weapons like Rain, Twinkler, Snake, and Travellers that rely on after-contact animations to do damage. This means you add/subtract time to their after-contact animation. Weapons like Air Strike don't count, but their radius is reduced.
Levels 1-33 v Levels 67+: Increase of explosion/damage animation by 3X/Decrease of explosion/damage animation by 1/3X.
Levels 1-33 v Levels 34-66 OR Levels 34-66 v Levels 67+: Increase of explosion/weapon animation by 2X/Decrease of explosion/weapon animation by 2/3X.
Opponents in the same range: No Change
In 3+ player battles, the change would be affected depending on which tank you chose to shoot and their individual HP compared to yours.

So, do these go with the points of randomness> Let's check:
1. To create exciting moments: YES. The lower level has a chance to come back and feels accomplished that they get more XP. They get an additional drive to keep playing. High levels would have to keep track of the player's HP and level more often with the tab when you roll over the tank, giving it a real purpose.
2. To give the lesser opponent a chance to beat the higher ones: YES. They don't have to always complete the comeback, they just need the chance to have one. If the higher level strays off, the lower level could catch them off guard. This would help make the game more random.
3. To force players to adapt to certain situations and make plans around them: YES. Higher levels have to make sure they stay focused and realize when their radii/animations are going to drop. Low levels couldn't win by abusing the system because the high level would still be powerful enough with the weapons to kill him/her off fast. That means this would add tension to both sides, one the pressure to come back, the other the pressure to hold on.

This concept could be added to weapon damage, crit on/off, x2 balance, deterring bumpers, and more. Be noted that having all of these on at once could make it tough for a high level to gain traction. It is essential to pick and choose correctly. The addition/reduction in radius/animation and increased/decreased weapon damage work well together, but adding friendly x2s or deterring bumpers might make it too unfair. Combos can be chosen, but they have to be chosen correctly or the system will fail for the higher levels.

So, what do you think? Is this something that might work? Am I insane for thinking this? Do you want some clarification on something or some of my ideas fully explained? Let me know about everything. I think we can improve this game by better understanding the Delta of Randomness.

 

This would be a big project for kChamp. But, I think this aspect of gameplay is important to look at. I see the problems as I play: When I play lower leveled people, they stand almost 0 chance of winning, I get called a hacker/ cheater, etc. In team games, if my teammates are low leveled and all my enemies are fairly high leveled, guess who's dying first? Me. I figured something was fundamentally wrong with the balancing, but wasn't sure how to explain it. I think you did a pretty good job of explaining it. I don't know if it's the most perfect solution, if it would create new problems, but it could be an improvement.

I can understand how this could improve the enjoyment of the game. Instead of, "man I know these weapons are useless. He's a high level. I'm gonna die ." It could be more fun if: "Oh man, he's winning! But this means his attacks will be less powerful, my inner chi will activate and I'll have a chance of coming back! As long as I make these next shots count!"

 

Simply making the weapon damage closer to each other would have the same effect imo. The thrill i used to get was getting beat by people and knowing if i practice more and level up i could give them a run for there money was enough to keep me entertained, tho i'm sure everyone has there own idea of fun. This idea isn't horrible but i think people would lose intrest of leveling. It would be great if this was a seperate Mod called Handycapped.

 

Too bad you can't control every player's motivation to be like mine or yours. I agree with Referee in the aspect that players would be more likely to keep playing the game if they didn't feel so defenseless. I also think this idea could be great as a mod. Everyone has their own idea of fun, so how about something for everyone? We can have an option to handicap people without stripping away the default balancing style for those who like the way the game is now.

 

Yes, this would have a similar effect. However, the higher levels would feel less superior if their weapons were nerfed forever. The weapon damage idea I had would apply with a 300+HP lead over someone, and I'll probably edit the original post to show this off in the near future. So yes, changing the weapons' damage would do this, but it would make higher levels mad and make it feel like you weren't going anywhere weapon-wise for the lower levels.

 

This makes so much sense. It's sad that it will never be implemented.

In short, this is purely a grinding game. Most people don't play for skill, they play to unlock weapons that they can easily crush other players effortlessly and feel good about themselves.

Look at when I pushed the splitter/rapid fire nerf. People were furious. I got all sorts of messages saying "it's not fair, I worked so hard to get that weapon now it sucks". They were mad that all that "work" they did so that they could dominate was lost. The people on this forum have such a weird "elite" mentality and if you threaten to take that away they go nuts.

I've tried literally for years to get more changes like this, with little to show for it. I don't see Kchamp changing this anytime soon. It will just continue to be a medium to cater to addictive personalities like mine

 

A lot of the allure of leveling in this game boils down to getting a greater variety of weapons to play with. The more you play, the more varied and fun the game gets. Most people would still be fine with leveling even if the higher tier weapons were only marginally better, so long as variation in the game still exists as you unlock more and more things to play with. And of course, this is disregarding things like the tech tree upgrades which are all objective upgrades. That still exists and is also still motivation to level up.

But wait. Why is motivation to level up so important anyways? People should be playing this game because it's fun, not because they want to get XP. Having poor game balance, like referee has pointed out, removes the "fun" element of the game and replaces it with the skinner box element of needing to unlock more powerful things. Balancing the game would make the game more inviting for new players and more fun to play, as victories wouldn't be decided just by who has the most hours put into the game. Sure it should still have an influence, but it shouldn't be a 10:1 shot for a player 40 levels below the other to make it out with a victory.

I'm not very well versed in the higher tier weapons that are deserving of a nerf, but I will say that giving low level players an arsenal of weapons where a good potion will hardly ever do above 40 damage is not a very good way to introduce players to the game. I think a great first step would be to simply buff the lower tier weapons, even if just a little bit, like a 1.5x dmg multiplier to make breakers do 30 dmg instead, for example.

I mean, I guess it doesn't matter as much now that there are enough players playing, but this issue is still quite prevalent in things like tournaments or playing with friends who are new to the game, or playing with friends with a much higher level than you. But even still, segregating levels like that will just encourage more power creep to occur, making the balance of the game even worse than it already is (see SSL2).

Anyways, nice post referee.

 

I think you guys are forgetting what weapons the lower levels have and how frequently they get them... the highest damage to skill needed are obtained early on, after you level every bad weapon in the game there is a greater chance of getting them. The only advantage would be the skill tree but armor also got nerfed and critical is way to lucky to count on it in a fight. Napalm, shredder, needler, sniper, snake are all obtainable very early on even nuke isn't that hard of a grind anymore.

 

Hey, that was the thing I was going to write about next! I still might do it. For those who don't know this, Skinner's Box is a way that a game keeps you coming back to grind, rather than focus on having fun. Those stupid farm games, and this game, is an example of this. However, this concept removes all aspects of fun from the game because it is solely meant to keep the player coming back, which I do indeed think this game is guilty of. Just look at the daily spin. Just having a chance at the 100 gears keeps people coming back, even though it is really small. I'll go more in-depth on that in another thread in the near future.
Consider this a sneak peak of sorts.

 

Those who voted for the following:



could you tell us why you voted for those?

 

Good stuff. Not much for me to say because people already said stuff. But I will tag this little cutie because we need this implemented: @kChamp

I can't wait.

 

Again... if you guys put half the time into posting you would be lvl 100 3 times atm... Kyles already catored to low levels enough.... If we want to play a game with no meaning to level we'll play Minecraft and Terraria.... How about we all have 10 hps and each wep does 1 damage? Skill at the core don't miss.

 

This isn't true. Sure, he lowered the XP requirements, but for a casual gamer, there was no possible way you could think that these people would come back. If it takes 7 days of grinding to go from lvl 49 to 50 in the old way, which it would for a casual gamer, they wouldn't feel as strong of a drive to come back. Plus, there has been nothing added to improve the gameplay itself for low levels. Are you saying that level 10s are going to make good use of Guppies and the gun weapons to have a chance against higher levels? Because they don't. In fact, they distance high levels and lower levels even more. The gameplay is fundamentally the same as it was at the start of release, just with more weapons to wreck the Delta of Randomness even more. I have reason to believe some high levels bring in low levels to grind with them because they know they are easy prey. There has to be something to counter the simple abuse of low levels. This makes it harder for level 60s and stuff to just flat-out destroy an innocent level 12 who doesn't know what's coming.

The issue with most people here is they can't visualize what is going on from the lower end of things? Would you want to be crushed 600-0 every time like what happens now? I'd quit, and if you didn't know better, you would too. Low levels need to have a chance to win to keep the game balanced, regardless of what happens. If you think you're losing advantage, you're not. In reality, you've been spoiled to the point where you think this (overbalanced) is great but that (normal balance) is incorrect. Plus, if skill is at the core, doesn't that mean the difference in radius/animation means nothing? Because level 100s are skilled in the game and know how to shoot everything?

I do respect your opinion, but you have a bias of being so high leveled. You want to forever be able to crush the noobs into the ground. I mean, they deserve better than to be crushed like that. This is a game everyone should be able to play, not just people who have played the game longer.

Also, that petty insult at the beginning of your post is untrue. As of late, they haven't even been on the forums because of b******* like that. All members of our community deserve equal respect. Also, they didn't like the game and thought it would die, so they didn't want to waste their time? How is that so wrong? That's not just bias, that's being biased AND rude imo.

 

Me and Bach work 40+ hour a week and you think were against low levels getting it easy? idk what your thinking but we definetly don't think like that. We have only proven you can live a life outside of ssls and be max level with a bit of time... Why do you guys want it to be easy to complete the game anyways?
Edit: Bach and I

 

I too am also interested in their thoughts.

Please avoid attacking each other in this thread. @referee11 @SubZero

 

If you're high level and you believe that higher levels should have a much greater advantage, yet higher level is generally of sign of higher skill, does that mean that you're insecure about your skill to the point in which you'd rather have a much greater advantage in order to basically guarantee your chances of winning, for the sake of high level dominance? Using the argument regarding high level dominance as an excuse for a much stronger advantage basically means you feel entitled to win simply based on luck and an extremely high unfair advantage. Skill becomes irrelevant for the higher player facing the lower leveled player, and even if the lower leveled player is much better skill-wise than the higher leveled one, the chances of him winning due to pure only is too minimal for a skill based game.

Yes, higher leveled players should have some type of advantage, but honestly, the current advantage is insane.

I do appreciate your lack of a concrete argument though, what with you having to resort to using the Straw Man tactic. :^)

oh and this ad hominem is really good.

It's easier for the newer players. In fact, easier shouldn't be used here, the word should be fairer. I don't know if you're aware of this fact, but fairer games tend to be better. Your question, "Why do you guys want it to be easy to complete the game anyways?", implies a lot of things. Did you skim our arguments and presume we want the game to be super easy for newer players? No, we didn't. We want balance. Making the game "super easy" doesn't seem like balance to me. And assuming you want the game to retain how difficult it is, you, as a level 100, wouldn't you have a really easy time against lower leveled players? Are you complaining about making the game easier, when for you, yourself, have it the easiest? Assuming you don't want to make the game easier, this would make it harder for you, albeit not that much. Making it more balanced will help the lower players, but it would still be pretty hard for them in regards to facing a higher leveled player. If anything, the arguments said and the changes proposed would make it harder for you, but in all honestly, someone with decent skill and a high level wouldn't be all that worried.

edit:

ok you know what, i think sub is actually right, cant argue with this

 

Staple take a seat..... Try playing the game you attept to benifit or ruin? Not sure yet. Add prestige and idc what nerfs you guys want to make it to where you have a chance to beat us. Wow get skillz.

 

damn you got me good

edit: does anyone have a chair

 

I don't need a wall of text for people with common sence to understand why you guys are wrong.

 

but tell us why you are right and we are wrong

 

Because i'm right and you're wrong... we don't ned weapons to do less or more just skill and a balence which is there if your smart enough... we need more over powered weps for prestige but other than that Kyle's doing fine.

 

Well the games you mentioned right there don't even have a leveling system to begin with.

And no, it still takes at LEAST 2 or 300 hundred hours to get to Lv100, and about 500 to unlock everything. Do you know how much time that is? Not everyone plays for hours everyday. For people who can only spend an hour or two to play this game, that literally means they must spend about 8 months or so if they played everyday, which is also unrealistic because SSLS is not the only game on Steam.

Yes, 1.5k people are still loving the game and playing it, but this game can do better and we might as well reach 10k. We don't want the game to be easy, it's just that the game is already way too easy and kChamp tries too hard - but fails - to make the game challenging and in-depth. I mean, come on, give it a dozen hours and everybody can land perfect hits. Why are you so obsessed with "hard work" and all other stuff? I'm sorry but it just straight up shows me that you only want the satisfaction of you owning significantly more powerful weapons and tank, and not the actual fun you get from playing the game.

If you're so good at this game then why do you even feel the need to panic when weapons get a nerf or levels etc get a major adjustment.

Coming from your perspective - Lv100 - this tells me that all you want is self-gratification. Why do you need OP weapons for such a, "skillful" game?

 

I really don't think Kyle knows how to make the game balanced. And why should he want to? If a player progresses getting more damaging weapons, isn't that in its own making the game unbalanced? Isn't that what a player aspires for in their need for their own survival? This isn't the type of game that should be made equal for lower vs higher level players. Rememeber when everyone wanted MegaNuke? Why? Because they had the notion and desire to rip to shreds everyone else. If that makes the game unbalanced, then everyone should play with the same one weapon... that would make it balanced.

 

you know, with an argument with that, i cant compete. i'm sorry. you're right. i'm wrong.

 

Let's just make it a mod and stop arguing.