The Delta of Randomness: The Failure of Shellshock Live

Anyways... Some people are way off topic to get post counts.... This game should be more balenced.... we need more prestige weapons to do 200+

 

Smooth irony.

How about Kyle implements community servers where their mods are active in that lobby? That would be great.

 

I really don't care if i dominate the battlefield. I got owned all the way 2 level 95 and still today sometimes. I just would like to see people who didn't give up on the game and tried to make the best out of a bad situation get a little bit of a reward Not speaking for me, but the others that grinded it out and tried to make the best out of a bad situation. That includes none of the fellow replyers lol.

 

There is a lot of factors that are being left out which also have a play on whether or not a weapon is "balanced". Even a weapon like Nuke can be justified for the big radius & 80 damage for the fact that not everybody can use this weapon immediately and the high level that you need to get it is the weapon's drawback.

A weapon that you already start off with that does damage higher than a nuke is sniper, but it's drawback is that it's hard to hit someone with especially when you want to do high damage.

Lottery does significantly higher damage than a nuke, but on top of the high level that you need to get it, failure to fire it right will give you 0 damage.

Napalm and especially Heavy Napalm not only does damage higher than a nuke, but you get it earlier, but the only way to do high damage is that it's only effective close range.

Earthquake is guaranteed to not fail you and will hit every tank (including the shielded ones) and can get you out of situations you don't want to be in, but at the cost of low damage.

Bulger does low damage and makes a hill which you think isn't a big deal, but it's highly useful in all shot matches when you can literally block shots with it.

These are just a few examples that I listed which won't mean a whole lot, but it's very important to look in depth at each weapon and what it does and how it's obtained in order to determine if it's OP or not. Each weapon is unique in it's own way and once you understand the potential of every weapon it puts you at a huge advantage as most people aren't aware of the tricks that some weapons have over others.

 

This stuff is true, I can't argue with that. However, these weapons are unbalanced on the curve for the reason that playing them can kill a low level. Using earthquake might actually hurt them if at the bottom of a quicksand hole because the higher level can easily do 80 or more damage because they came out of the hole. Earthquake for low levels is a death wish. And while Bulger can block shots in all shot, no one plays all shot because of the massive XP reduction. In single player, the low level is not equipped to keep up with any level 10 over them.

While this is sorta true, that's also part of the problem. If a weapon as OP as Nuke is given to high players and the best weapon they'll have for a while is Sprouter (if ~lvl 10), they're gonna get crushed. The point of the Delta of Randomness is solely to give everyone a chance. Even if the low levels lose, they give a good fight. Right now, I don't believe that's happening at all.

These are weapons low levels don't have. You get them as a mid level (34-66) or a high level. Plus, even if the lower player pulled a Jackpot from a box, the high level would deal more damage because they know how the weapon works, unlike the lower level. This could be fixed with descriptions, but for now, that's something I can complain about. As for Napalm, you're right, it is balanced on the Delta of Randomness. As for Heavy Napalm... no. If you shoot it up close, it can end games even with higher levels in them. It just makes the lower level want to quit the game and go play something else where they aren't magically dead in a few shots. And with every chance they get of getting it, they might be a) Stuck in a hole or too far away to use it or b) The high level might have one of their own or might have a vastly superior "deck" of weapons the rest of the way. At the point where you get it, your weapons won't be able to maintain, and you will lose.

Napalm and maybe Jackpot, of the ones you mentioned, are the only ones truly balanced. Heavy Napalm is too far above the curve for the below-the-curve effect, and Earthquake and Bulger are too far beneath the curve for their above-the-curve effects to really make an overall difference. There needs to be a better balance of this.

 

Ehm, at this point, you have no choice in terms of having low levels join. If I didn't play with some, I'd wait for hours to get a high level. When they do come, they leave within two games because I suck in comparison. Because I am what is called a casual gamer, I'm not as into the game as the hardcore players who have already reached lvl 100. Anyways, when they leave, I have to tolerate playing with lvl 60s and stuff. And I crush them every time, which isn't fun and part of why I made this in the first place. This game offers me nothing, no matter who I play. In addition, none of this stuff has anything to do with the raw gameplay. That's all xp-based and grind-based. Do we really not want to make the game more fun for the low levels? Our leveling system is nothing more than a Skinner's Box, which is a way you keep grabbing at the player to come back. For those who don't know, this means kChamp did something wrong. Skinner's Box is a pyschological trap, and kChamp was and is obviously using this to keep us here. That's also what the daily gear thing is... every day at 8:00 PM EST (when the game refreshes its counter), people come back on to ensure they don't miss the boost in gears. That isn't players coming back for fun, that is the game telling the player to come back. Though this may seem extreme, think of a cigar. You smoke once, and the chemical compounds mess with your brain and tell you to get more. It is a reliable way to ensure that buyers keep coming back and the cigar enterprise thrives. Pretend kChamp is that cigar enterprise, and you have this game. Nothing more to it.

We weren't disagreeing with that. We were asking why he feels like he couldn't win if these changes were applied. Since he's so accurate, it wouldn't even matter anyways, if this is true. That's the point being brought up. Hopefully that clarifies the stuff going on.

 

I hope people realize that the intention of Referee is to get the game out of the cliche grinding system where the unlocks are the only things that grant you happiness in this game. Yes, Kyle did a fantastic job nerfing the required XP as we requested, that's good but that still doesn't neglect the fact that the game isn't flexible enough.

 

Meh, that would kill the drive of the game then to actually level up if you know you can beat anybody at any level. The suggestion overall doesn't stand as well as it would be doing if it was posted a year ago, and that's because the surge of players dramatically changed the way people play SSL. It makes sense that a high level person would be able to beat a low level person no problem in a 1v1 match because that high level person has spent more time getting all of that stuff to buff them up while the low level has spent so little. Note most games that SSL used to consist of 1v1 matches because of the low player count which in turn really screwed over the little guys.

That's no longer the case currently. The low level people have a lot of other low level people to play with now to help get themselves at a higher level. There is also a lot more people to hold 8 player matches which significantly increases the chances of a low level player of winning and significantly lowers the chance of a high level player winning. As long as the lower level players were smart enough to go after the highest level player first, that high level player doesn't stand a chance. Even if they all weren't going after the 1 tank, it would still be harder for that high level player to win since it would need to deal with 7 tanks and not just 1.

The only time I've been criticized for being a high level is in 1v1 tournaments and farming lobbies (for reasons) and people ask about my high level in other lobbies, but nobody has raged because a level 92 killed them in an 8 player ffa. The point is that trying to "re-balance" the game isn't really needed anymore because the unfair 1v1 matches don't come up as often, and the only time that they do is in tournaments. I doubt that the "unbalance" that you guys see will cause SSL to fail because it's just not as big as a problem that it once was and it's not the biggest one on here. The two biggest problems that SSL has currently are a little bit beyond Kchamp's control and there is no easy fix which is the amount of cheating/exploitation that is going (with rulers/ xp farms/ etc.) and the connection problems people are having. That's the two biggest issues going on right now, and not the one where a player who has been playing longer than them who is playing fairly is beating them.

 

did u read the thread

 

I think I should explain something since some people seem to be confused...

Game- The whole entity of a game. This includes coding, menus, etc.. The game itself does not create any experience of its own. XP leveling is part of this. The leveling isn't the gameplay, but an entity that comes with the game. Shellshock Live could exits without leveling. It would be different, but it is possible.
Gameplay: The physical act of playing a game. This includes communicating with other tanks and the act of aiming, firing, and moving.

Now, what am I saying? The game is not completely bad. There are some errors in the coding (hence bugs) and with the servers, but the game itself is kinda well-made. The gameplay is greatly fixed towards high levels (hence why this exists). There is a difference.

That's not true. Before, there were so few new people it didn't matter. It was all forumers, who were willing to endure whatever they had to to ensure the success of the game. This wouldn't have done a thing a year ago, and you provide no reasoning as to why it would.

This has nothing to do with the Delta of Randomness at all...

 

It does though. The whole point of this thread is to balance the weapons in a certain way that a low level player doesn't get decimated by a higher level from how I read it. It's not as big of a problem as it was before because of what Banna said. On top of that, the majority of current games being made are done in such a way that the high level player doesn't always win. They do in 1v1 matches which is what the majority of the games were in the past, but we livin' in the present and you don't come across these games often. All of this allows players to level up comfortably without being penalized for being such a low level. There is no major all around balancing to weapons to be needed. The time that Kchamp would have to spend trying to balance the weapons in order to make it work with how you want it could be used on at least attempting to fix some of the more major problems that are ruining the game for everybody.

 

Ah, that's why we are on different pages. My thread discusses the issue of balance, but my ways to fix it are not permanent weapon nerfs. For example, the radius/animation doesn't directly affect damage output at all. Crackler still deals base 9, and Air Strike still does base 20. That hasn't changed. The weapon radius means you have to hit more precise, and weapon animation means that a weapon like Crackler won't last as long and deal slightly less damage than normal. We're just making it harder to score the same damage. Plus, this only would come into effect after the high level is running away with the game. It isn't just an always thing. When the higher level leads by 200 and is pulling away, that's when the effect takes place. I agree, making it an always thing would not be beneficial. But applying it when the higher level is about to crush the lower level is helpful. Also, once the lead is less than 200 hp, the effect goes back to normal for that turn. As mentioned in the main post, it probably wouldn't affect the end results of most games anyways. It does help to bring more xp to a low player if they are stuck playing together in a tournament for any reason or something. Anyways, when low levels realize they can compete with the best in the game, they have more drive to keep playing, even if a system like that is in effect. So I'm not talking about directly nerfing the weapons once the higher level is up and running (though it is a possible thing), I'm talking about making it harder to deal the same damage and giving the lower player a chance to come back.

I'll blame that error on my presentation and my organization. That probably got lost in the thick of everything.

 

i think that the game is balanced.Here why: low lvls actually have good weapons but they can't use thems that's all.I mean now low lvls have pretty strong stuff + they can get this stuff way faster than before and i think that most of you forgot this!The first lvls goes x3 faster and the weapon upgread as well(it was hilarious kyle nerfed xp needed like 3/4 updates in a row and i was like yhea )
They can't aim and they play game badly that's their"fault"(wich is not truly a fault it's normal for a low lvl to don't have much skills)
Here a list of the Good weapons that low lvls have:
before reading this i consider low lvl under lvl 60 now it's really easy to get this lvl:
-stream,creek,river,tsunami
-blaze,inferno
-sniper,sub sniper,smart sniper
-synclets,super synclets
-sharpenel,shreders
-napalm,heavy napalm,fire storm
-needler,dual needler
-moons,orbitals
-banana split,banana bunch(they will soon get it and it's a bad ass weap 110 + dmg close range)
-uzi,mp45,p 90
-summoner or travelers or skeet
they may don't have last tier of new ones but i mean,now getting tsunami,napalms,dual ecc it's just EASY.Kyle nerfed xp really much and i think it's a good thing.I think that,to bring a bit more balance,he should continue to add strong low lvl weaps like banana(wich are really cool too).
ps:i was thinking about a kind of starter pack?in ssl2 there was this thing for a few dollars,if you was a begginer,you got something that really helped you.I was thinking the same for steam.A starter pack that you find in gear shop that cost 0 gears,till you don't buy it,you get a notification.i was thinking that it could give
-5 good weapons (or more)
-1 tank upgread(so you would also be able to complete the three of upgrades)
-3 of each item
-small ssl guide for aim,gear shop work,xp mult,game modes,tips and tricks(THE ONES THAT ARE ALREADY IN STEAM DOESN'T COUNT NO ONE READS IT HOW WOULD YOU THINK A LOW LVL WOULD? if puted in game i think that it will have way higher chances to be readed)
-500 gears
you may think that it will help also the"high lvl" but since we are already "rich" in term of weapons,upgreads,and gears we wouldn't get the benefits that a new ssl player would get by getting this starter pack.It's like giving 20 dollars to a rich man and a poor man.it doesn't change really much for the rich man but it means something for the poor one.Btw that example i think that 5 more good weapons(possible easy to use) for someone that don't have much weaps=high chances to get this 5 ones means really much.(+ the other starter pack bonuses that aren't bad)
I don't know what more could balance out the game......maybe some sfotwares that makes you learning SSL in 3 secs like matrix to give to the new players

 

...but why? You mention lower levels don't know how to use them. Of course not. That's why this needs to be added to give them a better chance at getting used the the weapons and not getting the feeling of failing every game. If every low level knew how to use every weapon, of course they wouldn't need this. This game is balanced in the eyes of the high level, but math clearly states otherwise. In my thread, I didn't use arbitrary numbers, but real numbers that can be used in a logical way to form a power curve. I even mentioned how I got them. The only arbitrary thing in the game are boxes, x2s, and lazers that only help the high levels. Thus, this is statement of being balanced, given the reasoning you provided, is bias.

Again, I'm not talking about leveling. That is part of the game. I'm talking about the gamePLAY. I never said anything this whole time about level xp or weapon xp. You have to realize the game and gameplay are two totally different things, and I even explained the difference above.

You have no way of knowing any of this. You haven't bought a second copy of the game, right? A veteran cannot perfectly describe the experience of a low level. Even I can't alone, but I used real feedback from real low levels that I have played in the past, so the data is more accurate. You don't even know how much XP is needed to unlock every 2t ier+ weapon up there because those values disappear after you unlock them (which you obviously have). Again, more bias.

None of this has anything to do with this thread. However, I'll dissect this stuff anyways. This stuff is better made into new threads, rather than posted on the thread you are in.
The guide doesn't help anyone in games with high level differential. The higher levels will still win huge right now because of the mssive D.O.R. this game has. That doesn't make the weapons more balanced... Also, the guide obviously wouldn't help low levels. High levels have learned enough through genuine play to have learned this stuff by now. Making an idea about how to help levels doesn't immediately make me an idiot.
Why would you need a starting pack? You get your starting pack in Sinkhole, Flame, etc. Again, the point of the D.O.R is to keep the player in the game so they don't have to have insane weapons to stand a chance. The point isn't to cater to them. To me, giving them weapons they have to level/do challenges to get would be ridiculous.
The upgrade part is just an error on Kyle. Just make lvl 2 give you two and we're done there.
As for the items, I don't think it would matter. They would either abuse the items in curiosity or waste them in games they currently have no chance to win. That stinks. You might as well just add the points to their level up and move on.
500 gears is too much. You want the player to work a little bit to unlock an OP weapon. Once again, the D.O.R could be just nerfing weapons, but the examples I have provided showed other ways of doing it without nerfs. This should be apparently clear if you read the other comments before posting. I do not support giving them an OP weapon without any work, but I do support giving them a better chance to win with what they already have. That's the whole point of the W.O.R...

In summary, the game is not balanced and part of your post should be made as new/relevant threads, and not part of this one. I am trying not to be mean, but there is a lot of bias going on which clouds the feedback I have gotten from other real low levels who have come in more recently. There is a difference between game and gameplay, and the R.O.D doesn't necessarily have to work by nerfing weapons.
I hope I don't have to reexplain these last two points in future posts, since I have now given extensive detail to explain their differences.

 

1: after i get lvl 100 i start the game all again(there is a way to do it) and i' m sure that you get good stuff in no time.
2: i still don't see your points.Cause,for what i understood about that,you are saying that the game have to be more"random" and luck based so also low lvls can have a chance to win?If it is like that i'm gonna say you that this game is already more luck based than monopoly :/(infact i'm not sure that it's the point of the thread,i think that my bad english made me missunderstand the thread, sorry but if you really want to make SSL more luck based i need the help of some modertator to ban you from the comunity)
3:you can be even luckier than a guy that found an oil reserve under his house but,if you can't aim you can't win against someone that can shot in a decent way.Thats logical
example: i get 10 travelers and my enemy lvl 20 got 100.Even if his travelers are great in terms of luck he will still lose cause he can't aim.I used that example cause you said that travelers is a balanced weapon

RESUME: that luck based sytem works only if the low lvls are able to aim or every weap in the game was a clover mixed with dead weigth( i created a new weapon )

 

If you do that, how are you still lvl 98? And how are you #9 on the leaderboard with 800,000 xp? The way would clearly remove all xp you have to make you restart. This was just a last gasp attempt to keep your argument relevant.

As for your post, luck and randomness are two different concepts. Luck cannot be represented by any sort of math because it is luck. Randomness, however, can be controlled. In this game, the highest point you can have on the power curve is ~300, and the lowest is 5. That's randomness. Luck would mean that any weapon could deal any arbitrary amount on any arbitrary turn. Nuke could do 1 damage 1 turn, but 1,000 the next in the same circumstances. That's luck. There is a difference.
Also, that travellers scenario is completely impossible. I only use rational numbers based on real game data. And the implementation of the D.O.R doesn't mean the lower level is certain to win the game. It makes it harder for the higher level if they are romping already. It gives a glimmer of a comeback, not a full 100% chance. I would be shocked if they won 1%n of the games, but that is better than the 0% we have now.

Explaining this further is a waste of both of our times. If you don't get it, you're not going to get it, and that's OK.

 

ok but my point isn't for sure stupid.I mean since ssl2 people complained about the 80% luck of the game and now you want more?Maybe you have reason but this idea is questionable.Btw Luck and random are, for my point of view, same things.However we both shared our ideas and also if we disagree np it's part of a forum.Just don't make me look stupid cause i repeat in ssl there have alaways been complains about it's really big luck part(or random how you want to call it).And i think that now,with ssl steam,skill is finnaly something that matters.Look at the example that banna made just some post before that one (lvl 80 have almost same things of lvl 95 but lvl 95 wins beacause of skill)

ps:tacotubes wich is a really good and dedicated player of ssl said that he gets fun creating lvl 1 account and surprise the people with his high lvl skill.I'll ask him for that

 

How? I literally just explained how they are different. Luck is uncontrolled, and randomness is controlled. I'll give a real world example of each.

You walk into a restaurant, and you take a seat at a booth. At the booth next to you, your best friend is sitting there. This is luck. You had no way of knowing your friend was there unless you planned it out, which you didn't in this scenario. Thus, this is luck.

You roll a traditional die and check the number it had rolled. This is randomness. The number is uncertain to you at this moment of time, but there are only 6 possible options: 1,2,3,4,5, and 6. Thus, the roll is random. You can't get a roll of 20 or -5, which you could if luck was involved.

I know I said I wouldn't explain it farther, but the difference can play a small roll in your life. Though the D.O.R. probably won't ever come up again, the difference between luck and randomness probably will. And even if it doesn't, it is still good to know.

Luck is uncontrolled, and randomness is. That is the difference.

 

So would it technically be wrong to say you got "a lucky coin toss?" or "lucky die roll?"

 

Exactly. We use the word "luck" because it has been engraved in our society. Why? Because William Shakespeare actually invented the word, and a lot of stuff we say was based off his work. I think it was initially used as a pun in one of his earlier works. In a modern sense, we use this to degrade the achievement of someone to some extent while giving him/herself more reason to say the game was arbitrary and unfair when it wasn't. Saying "random die roll" would be better in the context, but that sounds wrong with the technical definition of "random". "Luck"'s technical definition makes the phrase seem more logical so we use that. In the video, that is why they use the die to represent the different types of randomness. In summary, luck, in the senses provided, is used as a platform to degrade the achievements of a player even though the results were constrained, or random.

Great question! I hope that explains it better.

Fun Fact: Randomness can be associated with probability, while luck can't. It's for the same reasons, but it is still worth pointing out.

 

I figured that was the case, although I actually never knew the word "luck" came from Shakespeare.

 

Lol. This game is luck based atm not due 2 weapon balence tho... Wep damage is there and we all calculate according to our weps but x2 bubbles Crits Wep choices bumpers, and portals.

 

Seriously tho. Just gonna say the game is already too random cause of Kyle's fetiche for randomness. Gazillions of random weps... random crit... random appearence of x2, bumpers and portals.

I feel the need for a more objective game mode where both players are given the same power and the only difference will be their strategy and creativity. Since its just a mode it wont change the game completely... it suits just who wants to play it and add more variaty to the game.

If a good ammount of ppl want more random (figures) Kyle could make a YOLO mode where things are left even more to chance... game modes are the solution to please everyone

 

That or mods. Preferably with high mult so we all are forced to love them. xD